Modern car visibility just gets worse and worse.

"Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell." (oppisitelock) 04/27/2015 at 07:49 • Filed to: None

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Case in point. My old Panda had absolutely fantastic visibility, but my new Twingo has a tiny rear window and huge C pillars. At least it has nice big mirrors to counter it. It doesn’t look so bad in the picture, but the way you sit to drive it means you have huge blind spots. The Panda on the other hand is like a greenhouse.

The price you pay for much better crash safety I guess, Plus the design of the Twingo doesn’t help.

Mattbob > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 07:51

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I find it ironic how styling driven by safety standards tends to cause reduced visibility and the possibility of more accidents. “oh no, thats okay we will just add cameras all around the car so you just have to stare at a 10cm screen to see whats around you, problem solved!” says the automakers..... :-/

The Gray Adder > Mattbob 04/27/2015 at 07:54

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I still wonder why the ass end of a vehicle needs to be reinforced as if it were a tank. If anything, your best chance of buying the farm is in a head-on collision, not getting rear-ended.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Mattbob 04/27/2015 at 07:54

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Yep, Volvo had the idea of making pillars see through but I don’t think it ever happened. It should.

It’d probably be much more expensive to implement than some sensors and a screen.

tapzz > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 07:54

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You have a very commendable taste in cars! How do the two compare in the way they drive?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 07:55

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I can’t help but wonder how many accidents are caused by these safety features. The reviews for the BRZ said that visibility was excellent for a modern coupe, but I had never driven a car before that was so hard to see out of. Because of the low hood, I know exactly where my front is, but anything behind me, forget about it.

Snooder87 > The Gray Adder 04/27/2015 at 07:57

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Because people put their kids in the back.

Generally though the massive pillar problem is due to rollover standards and roof safety rather than rear end collisions. If you are going to design a car that can sit on it its roof without crushing the people inside, it needs beefy supports.

Mattbob > The Gray Adder 04/27/2015 at 07:57

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BUT THE CHILDREN!!!!!

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > tapzz 04/27/2015 at 07:58

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Thanks. The Panda definitely had a much more interesting character, perhaps too much character (it broke a lot). The Twingo is very chuckable though and great fun to wring out on a B road, has a go kart feel to it (and about as much power as a go kart).

I do find myself missing the Panda, since I was forced to get rid of it, I wanted to keep it. I’m very much enjoying the Twingo though, it really plays up to that slow car fast philosophy and brings out your inner hoon. Surprisingly comfortable too. The Panda had too much body roll to be truly fun to chuck around, not that it was a bad handler by any means.

The Gray Adder > Mattbob 04/27/2015 at 07:59

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What about ‘em?

The Gray Adder > Snooder87 04/27/2015 at 08:00

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Or you could make the car lighter.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 04/27/2015 at 08:03

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At certain angles trying to pull out of a junction, my A pillar completely blocks my view of the road unless I lean right forward. Then the rear blindspots make very tight parallel parking (which I do a lot) more awkward than I’m used to. I’m getting used to it now though.

Snooder87 > The Gray Adder 04/27/2015 at 08:04

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Which lowers the side impact protection and as you noted the very deadly front impact protection.

Honestly though, we aren’t race car drivers. Just being able to see traffic doesn’t actually men that people are better drivers or avoid accidents more. Its not like great visibility would significantly improve traffic safety. Otherwise Volvo would only sell convertibles.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > The Gray Adder 04/27/2015 at 08:04

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I think they mainly do it for improved roll over protection, treating the rear pillars like a big roll bar, I could be wrong though.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 08:05

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I’d hate to have to parallel park my BRZ. I’m actually thinking about selling it before moving to the city largely for that reason. That and I know how many people up there view parking as a contact sport, and I don’t see the front fascia holding up to that.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 04/27/2015 at 08:08

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It wouldn’t be an ideal city car that’s for sure. I live in a city and having an agile little hatchback is a huge advantage.

Rock Bottom > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 08:10

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I agree. Here in the US, my family has a 2000 Ford F-350 (4 door with rear seats) and looking out the back window over the rear seat is easy. The seat back isn’t much higher than the bottom of the rear window. I recently spent a day with a 2015 F-350 and it had very tall rear seat head rests that obscure a significant amount of the bottom half of the rear window (the only part you use in a truck this big). You could hide an Explorer in the blind spot made by these headrests!

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Rock Bottom 04/27/2015 at 08:15

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Luckily my car wasn’t specced with the optional rear headrests, I test drove one with them and they obscure most of the rear window. I would’ve ended up removing them. That’s another thing that’s killing visibility in modern cars.

yamahog > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 08:16

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Most cars probably have some ugly wiring harnesses and stuff also running through the A pillars, so I’m not sure it’ll end up happening. Also with the rise in importance of narrow offset testing, A pillars will not be getting any smaller.

I know what you mean though, I went from a lifted glass box (97 Cherokee) to relying entirely on mirrors (fifth gen Camaro).

Mattbob > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 08:23

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yeah, I cant imagine the cost of the special glass bits they would have to use. Cool idea though.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > yamahog 04/27/2015 at 08:26

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Yeah true. I would like to see someone research whether you could get similar strength out of a pillar like the one above, compared to a standard one, out of curiosity. Getting the same results would probably require more expensive materials and manufacturing processes though.

I don’t think there are too many wires running along the A pillar in most cars, my Panda had a bundle of about 10 wires and that was only for the electric sunroof and ceiling light. They could probably be hidden elsewhere or in a thinner pillar.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Mattbob 04/27/2015 at 08:28

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Well they could probably just use one piece of glass/ perspex over the pillar, the cost would most likely come from trying to manufacture a more complex shape.

BloodlessWeevil > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 08:29

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Fiat 500L. The A-pillar is so big they put a window in it!

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > BloodlessWeevil 04/27/2015 at 08:30

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There are a few larger cars like that, very handy. They basically have two A pillars with a window between them.

tapzz > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 08:44

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I did once drive a previous generation Panda many years ago, and was surprised at how enjoyable it was: very nimble and agile, almost nervous. I didn’t even mind the body roll as I like cars that let you know what’s going on even if you’re not caning it. Steering was a bit light on feedback, though. Surprised that yours broke so much because I thought these Polish made Pandas were comparably well regarded, and there’s not a whole lot that can go wrong on them ;-)

I’ve never tried a mk II Twingo, but it’s good to know that the non-RenaultSport versions are hoonable as well.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > tapzz 04/27/2015 at 08:48

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It was mainly engine issues, I had the diesel which is known to have some issues with killing turbos. I just couldn’t get the thing to run right. It could’ve been due to previous owner mistreatment though, it was a ten year old car. There were a few quality issues too and the clutch was starting to go.

They’re very good chassis wise for such a cheap run of the mill car. I would love to have got an RS but insurance was far too high, they must be great fun to drive.

jjhats > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 08:53

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so did kia. I think it is a fantastic idea

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 09:23

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The Panhard Dynamic is the earliest car I’m aware of with that feature. I think in modern cars it evolved back out of the space for a vent window - on the Dynamic it was kind of an aberration.

boxrocket > BloodlessWeevil 04/27/2015 at 09:44

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I looooove the interior and airy feeling of the 500L. Everything else about it though.....

boxrocket > Rock Bottom 04/27/2015 at 09:47

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The 2015's headrests should be foldable or removable, IIRC. I could almost swear I've removed them on a 2014 and stowed them in the underwear storage bin (which looks designed for rifles and shotguns).

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/27/2015 at 10:00

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I hope someone restored that poor thing, cool looking car.

Rock Bottom > boxrocket 04/27/2015 at 10:05

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Yeah, they probably are, but I wish they weren’t there at all. Then again, I don’t sit back there!

Rock Bottom > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 10:06

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I wonder if they’re getting huge for safety or for comfort...

tapzz > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 10:09

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All the Panda reviews keep saying that the best engine for the Mk I and II Panda is the simple 1.2 FIRE petrol. Having said that, I can see the attraction of more horsepower and epic fuel economy from the diesel...

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > tapzz 04/27/2015 at 10:41

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It had twice the torque and drove really well when it ran properly. Plus £30 tax and 50mpg driving rather uneconomically.

The petrol probably is more flexible and reliable though.

deekster_caddy > The Gray Adder 04/27/2015 at 10:44

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Here’s one that I know of

http://www.plugincars.com/chevy-volt-tot…

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Rock Bottom 04/27/2015 at 10:48

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Probably a bit of both. My Panda had rock hard plastic headrests just to provide the bare minimum for safety, whereas the ones on these Renaults are like cushions.

KirkyV > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 16:42

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Yay for visibility! (The lack of rear seats makes the rear visibility look worse than it actually is.)

But also this:

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > KirkyV 04/27/2015 at 16:50

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Yeah I suppose if that’s the compromise I need to take to have better crash safety I’m cool with it.

The difference a few years makes...

KirkyV > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 16:53

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Indeed. I would say I’m similarly inclined to opt for crash safety over visibility/lightness... But I do plan to replace this French deathtrap with another, moderately faster French deathtrap, so I suppose not.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > KirkyV 04/27/2015 at 16:56

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With me wanting as new a car as possible, decent crash safety was kind of a given, not a concious choice. It is comforting to know it’s there though.

KirkyV > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 17:01

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Indeed. Meanwhile, the newest cars I’m looking at are pre-2005, and the oldest late-eighties.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > KirkyV 04/27/2015 at 17:05

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What sort of stuff do you have in mind at the moment? Still focusing on 106 GTI/ Saxo, or have you been considering some other stuff? You did post that Citroen BX GTI a little while ago.

KirkyV > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 17:35

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It’s mainly a matter of what I can afford to insure—I’m probably going to wait at least until the end of this year’s insurance on the 106. The issue I’m having is that I was involved in a three-way collision about seven months ago, and while I’m not being claimed against, the other two drivers’ insurance companies are busy fighting about who has to pay for what. Until they sort it, I’m going to have an unresolved claim on my record, and I can’t really switch insurers because most of them take one look at that and go, ‘HAH!’.

Once that load of crud’s resolved, I should be able to afford the insurance on something like that BX I posted. The 106 GTi will still be too pricey, though, and they’re getting really expensive to buy—for a good example, you’re looking at about two-and-a-half grand, which is just crazy for a car that generally went for less than a thousand about a year ago. I’d love to have this one, if I could afford it:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/adv…

It’s the same colour as my 1.1, and I’m hoping I could fool my less-attentive friends into thinking I had the same car, right up until I put my foot down.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > KirkyV 04/27/2015 at 17:43

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Insurance heavily restricted me when I bought the Twingo. I really wanted a warm/ hot hatch of some kind but it just wasn’t going to work financially. I’m still happy with what I got though. Much nicer than the other stuff I looked at in my price range, Aygo, C1 etc.

What happened in that accident, were you in the 106?

That GTI is really nice, I didn’t realise it cost £285 a year to tax though. Ouch.

KirkyV > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 17:58

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Yeah. If I were to buy a new car right now, I’d probably go with an older warm hatch, like this Saxo:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/adv…

Or this 306 XS:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/adv…

My current company will let me transfer my policy to either for just over a hundred quid, all-in-all.

I was in the 106, but it was so long ago at this point, that I don’t actually remember much about what happened. The majority of it was between the two other drivers; I’m only involved by virtue of my car having been scraped.

The tax is shitty, but the same’s true of almost all older performance cars, unless they’re old enough to be classics.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > KirkyV 04/27/2015 at 18:05

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I think it cost me £30 to switch my insurance to the Twingo and I paid £2800 cash and handed them the keys to the ruined Panda. So it didn’t cost me too much overall for a 5 year old 35k mile car in good nick. I would’ve had to put down more to get into an older Zetec S or similar. I’d love to upgrade to a Twingo RS at some point though, the handling is fantastic even on my 60hp car, with some extra power and chassis tuning it must be great fun.

A Saxo with miles that low and unmolested? Nice price.

KirkyV > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 18:11

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Yeah, if I were switching to a Twingo like yours, there’s actually a decent chance that they’d refund me some of what I’ve already paid.

The Mark II Twingo RS is a lovely car, but I have to admit that even my FWD-evangelising self is rather excited about the prospect of a Mark III RS/GT/Whatever they end up calling it.

I would actually really dig getting that Saxo, but it’d feel like a waste to get a new car now when I know I’ll be able to afford something a fair bit faster in a relatively short amount of time. The 106 is still going strong, so I really have no good reason to make a change right now.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > KirkyV 04/27/2015 at 18:15

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They said to me the overall price is £50 less than my old Panda, but there’s and £80 transfer fee hence the £30.

I’m excited for the MK3 RS, I’ve not heard great things about how the standard MK3s handle but I’m sure RS can fix that. I looked around a mid-spec one in the dealer I bought my Twingo from. Excellent looking cars.

Yeah it does make sense to hold onto it, if the Panda didn’t break I would’ve kept it for a while longer and made a bigger upgrade. But if I didn’t trade it while it was still sort of running I would’ve either had a 900kg paper weight or a hefty repair bill on the way.

KirkyV > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 04/27/2015 at 18:41

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Yeah, I don’t think my company actually has a transfer/administration fee. I remember asking about it at some point.

The Mark III’s reception has been fairly lukewarm - it sounds like they did pretty much all they could to make them as dull to drive as possible for the layout - but, then, it’s not like the base Megane’s ever been lorded as having particularly fantastic handling.

You definitely made the right call on the Panda. From what I remember, you got a great deal, on both the price of the Twingo and the trade-in value of the dying Panda.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > KirkyV 04/27/2015 at 18:47

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We had a 1.6 2004 Megane and it was absolute rubbish to drive, yet the RS from that era is really well liked, so RS seem to be able to make a meh car drive properly.

I managed to get £950 for the dying Panda. I checked earlier and after 3 weeks it’s still untaxed so therefore not on the road. I wonder where it ended up, I know the dealer just auctioned it off straight away.